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Should I stop a women from suicide??

Home Forums Life, Love & Girlfriends Random Thoughts and Questions Should I stop a women from suicide??

This topic contains 11 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  Nate 1 year, 4 months ago.

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Nate

Nate

Picture this situation in your head. There is a women about to jump from the roof of a building, what is your reaction? Should you react??What if she doesn’t listen to your pleas? What if she tries to jump anyways?? Would you try to physically stop her? I hope that your answer to all of these questions is yes!
But using an abortionists logic, it is her body, so therefore it is also her choice. If she wants to end her life than that is completely her decision. Her body her rules.
Hopefully you can see the fault in this logic. Whether or not a baby’s body is her own or not is relevant. Many abortionists and abortion doctors agree that the baby IS alive, and that it CAN feel, and yet it is the women’s choice whether she wants to abort it or not, because it is her body. And yet I should hope that these same doctors would try to stop a women from ending her own life. The only reason abortion doctors define abortion as a women’s right is to garner feminist support, and label any anti-abortionists anti-women. Nothing could be farther from the truth! I am an “old fashioned” feminist, and yet I am still against abortion.
Another myth is that pro-lifers don’t care about women, and they don’t care how she cares for the baby after it is born. I wish I could say that nothing is farther from the truth, but I personally know pro-lifers who feel this way. That is tragic, and not an accurate representation of every pro-lifer.

I care about women, both before and after the birth of their child. I am aware of many pro-life organizations that provide diapers, baby bottles, and basic necessity’s for new mothers. Those are the kind of organizations that I want to be associated with.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://feminspire.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/anti-choice-baby.png&imgrefurl=http://feminspire.com/pro-life-anti-abortion-myths-debunked/&h=421&w=349&tbnid=1ZXSAGLFpnrCKM:&docid=0B-3bKM6Ki3vZM&ei=JomxVf2DEYaseYeymKAE&tbm=isch&ved=0CJQBEDMoWDBYahUKEwj9rvHXw_LGAhUGVh4KHQcZBkQ

July 23, 2015 at 17:44
Nate

Nate

This is also a thought provoking image:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://teamorthodoxy.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/prolife.jpg&imgrefurl=http://orthodoxcatholicism.com/tag/pro-life-2/&h=631&w=1695&tbnid=Qc_pqc2U8ceVNM:&docid=16no_FbKirHiLM&ei=JomxVf2DEYaseYeymKAE&tbm=isch&ved=0CJoBEDMoXjBeahUKEwj9rvHXw_LGAhUGVh4KHQcZBkQ

July 23, 2015 at 17:46
rainbowuni

rainbowuni

Okay…I’m going to answer this piece by piece…

“Should I stop a women from suicide??”
In my opinion, you should try, but it’s not your fault if you don’t succeed.

“Picture this situation in your head. There is a women about to jump from the roof of a building, what is your reaction? Should you react??”
My reaction is to try to talk her out of it. There’s a good chance she’s upset about a temporary problem, and a permanent solution like suicide probably isn’t the best/only one out there.
“What if she doesn’t listen to your pleas? What if she tries to jump anyways?? Would you try to physically stop her?”
I would try to stop her, yes. I’d want to talk to her, to hear her story, to understand her reasons. Again, there’s likely another option—and 9 times out of 10, people come to the “suicide” decision rather hastily.
“I hope that your answer to all of these questions is yes!”
I would hope so too.

“But using an abortionists logic, it is her body, so therefore it is also her choice. If she wants to end her life than that is completely her decision. Her body her rules.”
As a pro-choice advocate, I would agree that it is her body, and her choice. Who am I make the decision for her about what to do with her body and her life? Why should I decide when she gets to die?
“Hopefully you can see the fault in this logic.”
I can see the fault in the logic you’re presenting, if that’s what you mean. You see, the pro-choice position isn’t advocating for hastily-made, uninformed decisions—they’re actually advocating for the exact opposite. Suicide, like I said earlier, is often a decision people make when they feel they have no other options, which is often not the case.
Now, you could say that too many people decide on abortion when there are other options, too—and I would agree with that. However, as neither you nor I know everyone’s story, it would not be wise to act as if we do and decide for them based on someone else’s situation.
Suicide may very well be the only option for someone (as sad as that may be, and as obscure of a reason there may be for it); I don’t know everyone’s story. Therefore, I’m not in favor of deciding for them by making that option illegal. The same goes for abortion.

“Whether or not a baby’s body is her own or not is relevant.”
I don’t care about personhood, personally, when it comes to this issue, because I don’t grant anyone (person or not) the right to use anyone else’s body without their consent.

“Many abortionists and abortion doctors agree that the baby IS alive, and that it CAN feel…”
This depends on your definition of “alive,” first of all.
And I’d like to see your references for the abortionists and abortion doctors who believe the fetus is “alive” and can feel pain, as the only reliable sources I’ve heard from say that neuroscientists agree that the fetus cannot feel pain until around 26 weeks gestation. (And, in case you weren’t aware, abortions decrease greatly by this point.)
Some good reading:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440624/
http://www.factcheck.org/2015/05/does-a-fetus-feel-pain-at-20-weeks/

Another thing to think about is whether feeling pain is a reason to stop someone from having an abortion. Since both pregnancy and childbirth can be painful to the mother, is it fair to protect the fetus on the grounds of pain? Just a thought.

“…and yet it is the women’s choice whether she wants to abort it or not, because it is her body.”
Again, I believe that no one has the right to use another person’s body without their consent.

“And yet I should hope that these same doctors would try to stop a women from ending her own life.”
I should hope so too—or, if not stop, at least make sure she knows what she’s doing. I would hope the same for a woman wanting an abortion—to make sure she is making an informed decision. I would want the same of a tattoo artist giving someone a tattoo, a social worker working with a mother giving her child up for adoption, and even a surgeon removing an appendix. (Alright, maybe not the surgeon, necessarily…but you get the idea.)

“The only reason abortion doctors define abortion as a women’s right is to garner feminist support…”
…because nothing is ever actually a women’s right, like the right to vote, or the right to not be sold as property, right? It’s all just some made up issue with the “women’s right” label attached to it to gain support of the man-hating lesbian feminists, right?
Sarcasm aside, why do you think abortion is not a women’s right issue? Is it not a woman’s right to have control of her body, and to not have things happen to it that she doesn’t want?
“…and label any anti-abortionists anti-women.”
I’d say the anti-woman label for “pro-life” people is accurate, being that they are advocating for forcing them to be pregnant and give birth against their will—which is effectively taking away their rights. Another label I prefer, however, would be “anti-choice.”

“Nothing could be farther from the truth! I am an “old fashioned” feminist, and yet I am still against abortion.”
What would an “old-fashioned” feminist be, exactly? Simply a feminist that doesn’t support abortion? Or is there something more you don’t support that not-old-fashioned feminists do and/or something you do support that other feminists don’t? Just curious, really.

“Another myth is that pro-lifers don’t care about women, and they don’t care how she cares for the baby after it is born. I wish I could say that nothing is farther from the truth, but I personally know pro-lifers who feel this way. That is tragic, and not an accurate representation of every pro-lifer.”
This is a common belief, I’m aware, and I’m aware it doesn’t apply to everyone who’s against abortion. But it does apply to some, like you said—and I think it just comes from people forgetting the real issue they’re fighting against and only focusing on having more babies born and less aborted. Nevertheless, it’s easy to understand why people would think that people against a woman’s right to her own body doesn’t care about women.

“I care about women, both before and after the birth of their child.”
Good for you. It’s good you care about women and not just their unborn fetuses.
“I am aware of many pro-life organizations that provide diapers, baby bottles, and basic necessity’s for new mothers. Those are the kind of organizations that I want to be associated with.”
It’s good that these organizations exist, and there’s nothing wrong with wanting to be associated with them and not the ones that don’t care about women or babies and only care about unborn fetuses.
I also know of pro-choice organizations that do the same—not all are concerned with killing every unborn fetus. 😉

“*first image*”
http://orig05.deviantart.net/19d1/f/2012/184/4/4/why_i_am_pro_choice____by_rationalhub-d55s78n.png

“*the thought-provoking image*”
Again, I feel that we can remove personhood from the issue—no person has the right to hijack another person’s body and use it without consent, right?

July 23, 2015 at 19:48
Nate

Nate

Whoa! Long one! 😀 Thanks for taking the time to respond! I am glad to know that you are well educated in this subject. I don’t have time to respond to this tonight, but tomorrow I can look up my reference, and respond. Tonight I am busy celebrating my birthday! (yayyy!!)
Have a good one!

July 24, 2015 at 18:44
Nate

Nate

I have to go to work now, but here is the article that I had in mind when I made the statement that even abortion doctors know that they are baby’s. https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/abortionists-agree-abortion-is-killing/

I have a question for you, if you talked to the women and found out that her suicide was not a hasty decision, but a well thought out one. Would it then be okay for her to jump? Because at least she thought it out.
You also say that: ” I would agree that it is her body, and her choice. Who am I make the decision for her about what to do with her body and her life? Why should I decide when she gets to die?” And yet just a few sentences earlier you said:

“What if she doesn’t listen to your pleas? What if she tries to jump anyways?? Would you try to physically stop her?”
I would try to stop her, yes. I’d want to talk to her, to hear her story, to understand her reasons.”

So even though it is her right, and she thought it through, you would still try to stop her? I think that you see her in a very loving light, which is great, but you know that your moral duty is to prevent her from doing wrong to the best of your ability. Why do you not feel the same way about a living baby?

I know that you have some other great points, too, but I am legit going to be late for work. lol So maybe I can deal with those when I get back.

July 25, 2015 at 08:32
rainbowuni

rainbowuni

It was your birthday yesterday? Happy birthday!

If she had demonstrated that she was thinking clearly and had thought it through, then I guess my work is done. I’m not going to tell her “yeah, you’re right, suicide is the only option for you,” (and I wouldn’t do this to someone considering abortion either), but the reason I wanted to talk to her and ask her is honestly more for myself. If I had just ignored her, I would feel guilty–the same with if someone was hurt by someone/something else, and I just stood there and watched, I wouldn’t be able to just watch someone suffer and feel good about myself.
Of course, suicide is sad, and we all don’t want people to die, that’s human nature. But to me, expecting someone to stay alive just so you don’t fe sad, is a little selfish (just as other people would claim committing suicide is selfish). As long as they’re not hurting anybody else, I do see it as their right to decide what to do with their body.
Abortion is also sad. It’s sad that a baby–whether they’re living or not and whether their own person or not–has to die. But that doesn’t give it the right to use another person’s body without consent. Can I ask you a question? Should the mother of a two year-old be legally forced to donate her kidney to her child? What about something more extreme, like a heart? Where does the child’s right to use the mother’s body without her consent end?

July 25, 2015 at 10:41
Nate

Nate

Well, I guess I have to respectfully disagree with you. I would even call the police if necessary to prevent a women from suicide.

That is a very thought provoking question! When a baby is physically attached to its mother, then it has no other way to survive, but when he\she is outside the mother then the baby has no more right to the mothers body than it does to the fathers or a strangers. After the baby is born, the only responsibility a mother has to the child is to be a caring parent, to place the child into a loving home, or a trustworthy adoption agency (that is also the father’s responsibility). The change is an obvious physical one. So the baby’s right to its mother ends when it is no longer physically dependent on her. After birth the baby has no more right to its mother than it does to its father.
There is a nasty fine grey line there that makes it so difficult. 😀

Let me state that I believe abortion is okay in instanced where the mother is suffering from extreme mental pain, and the pregnancy is making it worse (i.e. a rape survivor), or if the pregnancy will cost her her life, because the mother always comes first. She has the top priority, in my opinion.

I also forgot to define what I meant by an “old-fashioned” feminist. I don’t like what feminists have become today. Saying that women are the same as men (same strength, same skills, ect.), which as a general rule I don’t believe to be true (although there are multiple exceptions). Old fashioned feminists pushed equality, not similarity. So I still consider myself a feminist, just an old fashioned one.

July 26, 2015 at 18:02
rainbowuni

rainbowuni

Can I ask why you would want to stop the woman from suicide so badly? I mean, I understand where you’re coming from, because suicide is really serious and I never want anyone to do it, but ultimately, isn’t it their right? Would you go to such lengths to, say, stop someone from getting a tattoo?

Why does the fetus get special rights, then? If the toddler will die without the mother’s body (or just the kidney, anyway) (just as the fetus will die without the mother’s body), does it still have that right (or at least get it back)?

And why is the mother more important than the baby? If the mother consented to pregnancy and the risks associated, but the baby didn’t consent to being killed just because of the mother’s condition…why doesn’t it get to live?

July 26, 2015 at 19:21
Nate

Nate

Because I love her. Just like I love the baby, and everyone else. As Christians we are called to love everyone. I would save her not for myself, but because I care about her.

Just a little earlier you used the term “baby”, now you say fetus?
Anyways, The baby does not have a right to its mothers body AFTER birth. Just like it doesn’t have a right to its father or siblings. Because after birth it has nothing more to do with the mother than with the father. I think that (so long as it does not kill\harm the mother) she SHOULD help the toddler (it is up to her), but you can’t legally enforce organ donation. As I said before, if it harms the mother, in anyway, she can terminate the pregnancy. So even after the baby arrives, she can still choose whether she wants to risk her health for her child’s or not. I think it would be the most loving course of action, but I won’t judge her decision.

Not all mothers consent to pregnancy. Sometimes it is a HUGE surprise, and sometimes it is rape. The mother has top-priority because she has multiple friends and people who love and care about her. But even if she doesn’t have them, I feel cruel saying this, but a grown women has a higher chance of survival than a new-born, and you want as little risk of loosing both of them as possible.

July 26, 2015 at 19:51
Nate

Nate

And I wouldn’t go through any lengths from stopping someone from getting a tattoo, because that is not a life or death situation (tattoos are actually pretty cool. Not gonna lie).

July 26, 2015 at 19:52
rainbowuni

rainbowuni

Well I love her too, which is why I don’t want her to suffer with the choice I make for her life. Of course I’d be devastated–even if I didn’t know her at all–but it would be selfish of me to expect her to accommodate my needs over her own, wouldn’t it?

Can I ask when I used “baby” that wasn’t referring to either a newborn or your point of view? If I did, I was incorrect, as the correct term for a child in utero os fetus–or embryo, in the earlier stages.

Why doesn’t it have a right to the mother? What happens that takes away such an important right from such a young, innocent child? By only granting the right to fetuses, you’re giving them special rights that no other living being has…why?
And that also brings up a question: should a father be forced to pay child support if they’re not otherwise involved in the child’s life?

If it harms the mother in any way, she can terminate the pregnancy? Well, all pregnancies carry some risk, not to mention both physical and mental pain and trauma, as well as the miracle of childbirth that I hear can be rather painful…so is that sufficient enough “harm” to allow termination of the pregnancy?
Why can’t she choose whether or not to risk her health before the baby is born?

You’re right, not all mothers (or women) consent to pregnancy–so why are you in favor of forcing them to be pregnant without their consent?

The baby could grow up to have multiple friends and family members that care about it too, so shouldn’t it be just as important? Not to mention, if it did survive, it has more potential life ahead of it than the mother, right?
I still say, by the logic that a fetus has a right to use a woman’s body without her consent, it has that right even if the woman is dying. It doesn’t make sense to me why you would give the fetus a right to use another body without consent (because clearly it’s a baby that needs every possible chance of survival) but you still feel bad for the woman, so you try to make it sound better by saying “oh, she can terminate the pregnancy in any of these circumstances.” The real problem with it is, you don’t want the baby to feel pain, correct? Well, the circumstances you’re arguing for are the ones where it likely will feel pain, as life-threatening conditions typically don’t happen in early stages of a pregnancy. To me, it’s just inconsistent to say “the baby can feel pain, so don’t abort it” and then say “the mother is more important” in the same breath…

July 26, 2015 at 22:24
Nate

Nate

Hello! I have been very busy so I have not had the chance to respond. I am still busy, though. You have also given me a lot to think about, and I am a very open minded person. So I am going to excuse myself from this debate to consider an answer. But right now I am just too busy to try to tackle something like this. I hope you have a blessed day!

July 30, 2015 at 16:38
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